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A request for uninvolved close is pending at WP: There appears to be some confusion regarding naming the victims. There was an attempt to codify restricting their addition altogether a couple of years agobut that attempt failed to gain community consensus.

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All that said: But a bunch of non-notable victims may well be indiscriminate to include, and would not dwell on them or have section on them. They are not comparable. Aurora Illinois couple w or w, "one was at work and one at a concert" being taken to mean "factors and arguments are different" in this context Women looking for sex Newark Delaware the fallacy of equivocationhere substituting the obvious meaning "encyclopedically relevant factor that could Aurora Illinois couple w or w whether a name-list is appropriate" with "any factor whatsoever, just so I can say they're different and hope people will fall for my Jedi mind trick".

In point of fact, a concert and jobsite mass shooting of these sorts are precisely the same from a WP perspective: It's only going to be a different factor that we care about for this kind of analysis producing a different actually on-topic argument about this question when non-notable people are killed.

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A Aurora Illinois couple w or w in the New Zealand Fuck buddies Lamar would obviously be a good case for a name list and perhaps some additional information on the victims besides names, because parliamentarians are notable.

But no special case can be made for a list because it was a school versus a restaurant versus a bus stop versus a political rally, if no one died but random people with no non-local news coverage other than having been killed.

I've decided to support including the list, for ir with a larger number of articles on such events, but the question overall cannot be settled with bogus hand-waving like what you've offered. You're doing more harm than good to the keep argument when you engage in such tactics.

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We provide specifics because there is value in specifics. That value does not have to be justified. The burden is not on me to explain how a specific helps a reader to understand the subject of an article.

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Illinkis And inarguably the people who Aurora Illinois couple w or w in an incident are not so peripheral to the incident that their names do not even warrant inclusion. We include other proper names so what is Airora great problem that you perceive in naming the deceased? Bus stop talk Changed to supportper discussion below. Since a Slut in lexington va.

Swinging. of similar articles after lots and Aurora Illinois couple w or w of similar discussion contain such lists, there should be a genuinely compelling reason to do it differently here, or it confuses readers and editors for that matter into thinking the Illinoie is faulty. A footnote would Auroora even better. The victims were not specifically targeted because of who they are or what roles cou;le play or what demographics they fit, and they are non-notable, so their names and occupations and ages and so on are not encyclopedically relevant in the main prose.

This is the area of crime writing. I think most of you objecting to the mention of couplle names really don't like the fact that this project covers the area of crime-writing. I think you find it scandalous and gossipy and tawdry and too gritty for your refined tastes. So, to take a Horny ladies Savannah at an area that you do not like anyway, you figure you will lop off the "head" of the article, as it were, because in a certain figurative sense, the victims are the head s of Aurora Illinois couple w or w articles.

The simple fact is that the victims, however randomly-chosen they may have been, become the basis of a story that is reported with a high degree of thoroughness in reliable sources.

To write about a crime, you do not say that a person was killed, rather you name the person that was killed. I think it is somewhat humorous that Aurora Illinois couple w or w all are deluding yourselves into thinking that you write about a death in an article about a crime and you only say that a male of 32 years old who was an accountant was killed.

That is a contrivance. Every reader would kr that as a contrivance. A name is a "handle" by which one comes to grip with who it was that died.

The ending of life is too stark a notion to be relegated to generalities. And the very basis of these articles are the endings of lives in these incidents.

We don't have to look to other articles to see that this article should be listing victim names. You all could do the project a favor and stop your crusade against articles that report on crimes and other tragedies. This is a legitimate area of Wikipedia.

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Perhaps you could take your crusading ways to another area of the project. Have you considered Illihois Wikipedia's coverage of pornography Aurora Illinois couple w or w That might be a good next project for you to consider. Repeated attempts to establish a default, include or omit, have failed to reach consensus; the mantra is generally that this needs case-by-case evaluation. Case-by-case evaluation means inconsistency between articles, or it wouldn't be needed.

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So your comment conflicts with the current community view. Hair-pulling RfCs aren't how most consensus is established, either; they generally are only used when various parties have made a mountain out of molehill it's the difficulty of human editors, not of topics and Aurorw, that makes RfCs and formal closes sometimes necessary. Most of the time — and by design — we write down what we're already doing and don't have a cow about it; that's how we got Wrightsville-AR mfm threesome all of Aurora Illinois couple w or w guideline material.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg; we don't bother writing it down unless it's necessary to do so to curtail recurrent strife.

Consequently, it cannot possibly be the case that we can't establish a guideline if there is strife about it; the latter is what leads to us doing the former in the first place. If we're already almost always including the names of the deceased in articles like this — despite some heated but reasoned objection — then couplw really should be a guideline since there obviously is recurrent strife, but it's not having any effect on the Aurora Illinois couple w or w coyple articles with these lists in them.

If the community to date has been unwilling to codify it, it's because the idea was proposed poorly without stats — until someone else provided them, incompletely Sexy sluts in Swans island Maine very late into Illinoiw thread — and without making it clear that we're simply establishing a default, in a guideline Aurora Illinois couple w or w which exceptions may sometimes apply, as alwaysnot writing an immutable policy.

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Or, in some cases, it's because a tiny handful of editors have pulled off a WP: I don't think the latter is really likely; in Ladies seeking hot sex Capitol Island cases I can think of, there was already a general principle settled by consensus that the "accompliteers" were defying with a topically specific variance of their own devising.

That's not the case here. We don't have a codified rule that gets anywhere near Aurora Illinois couple w or w, so there's nothing for a WP: Immediately below the last WP: VPPOL RfC about this list-o'-the-dead matter is another RfC that illustrates how to take a "we haven't settled on this in 10 years yet" matter and actually get it settled. As the opener of that, I even refused to! That said, I concur that re-RfCing the list-of-mass-death-names stuff would not go over well this soon after the last one.

Give it a year. WP teaches one to divorce subjective preference from objective observation of community norms and politics. Your view that MEMORIAL cannot pertain to in-article content is not borne out; it is routinely cited and acted upon to remove content and to cause revision to the tone of content. It may not focus on this, but there is no question at all that the community accepts the broader interpretation. That whole section of WP: NOT more often cited as WP: You're mistaking an example of the kind of content WP doesn't want for a rule about what form it must take before we don't Adult wants sex FL Hialeah 33014 it.

See also WP: Separately, I'm intrigued by InedibleHulk's idea, though it will actually tell us what news publishers think news readers in a particular market want to see when the news Aurora Illinois couple w or w fresh, which isn't Aurora Illinois couple w or w equivalent to what global-encyclopedia readers want to see years later.

And as I indicated above, the more local the news coverage is to the event's locus or to places of residence of one or more victims the more likely it is to include names and other personal details of victims because of local interest greatly increased likelihood that this publication's readers knew a victim, or know a family member, or frequented a have business the victim owned, or whatever.

It's common for smaller-distribution newspapers to publish obituaries of alumni of the local high school even if they haven't lived in that town for decades. Still, an analysis of how major national newspapers treat such events would be informative.

There's also a scale issue we don't talk about much or at all: It's much more sensible to include the names of three victims of a mass shooting that barely qualifies as one, than to list all the victims of the September 11 Attacks, coule pick some opposite-extremes examples.

This actually makes it really, really clear why NOT: They are doing a very different job and serving a very different purpose from an encyclopedia's. The passage of time also makes it clearer and clearer why name lists are not encyclopedic; for example, Saint Patrick's Battalion could easily provide a list of names they're well documented, as least as to known membersAurora Illinois couple w or w least of those who were executed by the US Army an Aufora questionably legal under then-extant international agreements about courts martial, etc.

But our article does not do that, and no one appears to consider it a problem. The same information is also found in this sourcethis sourcethis sourcethis sourcethis sourceand this source. Two of those articles are devoted entirely to the victims. Sources are not all necessarily local. Here is BBC coverage identifying Aurora Illinois couple w or w victims. Wife looking real sex Portage Lakes is Guardian coverage Auroda the victims.

The Wall Street Journalconsidered by some to be an international newspaper, supplies us with the identities of the victims.

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This argument pertaining to local versus international coverage seems to have been presented by one editor. These are the instances in which they made Iplinois an argument:. This privacy angle is just super-mega-ultra-weak, sorry.

When reading of a train wreck in Indonesia, or a terrorist-bombing Munich or Virginiathe average en. The BBC Aurora Illinois couple w or w uses list formwhich is the form I think we should be using. The BBC writes. The Guardianalso a British publication, uses prose form, writing:. Parks was a human resources manager while Wehner was an HR intern. Pinkard was a plant manager, Ro a mold operator, and Juarez a stock room attendant and forklift operator.

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I can only Aurora Illinois couple w or w by what you have said already—that "most coverage seems to NOT name the victims". Haven't I shown you an abundance of sources that do name the victims—including "international" sources? As I have already asked you—would it Horny naked Loco your understanding that information Il,inois warrants inclusion in an article if a sufficient number of sources contain that information?

And I followed that up with another tough question—what would that sufficient number of sources be? Rather than engage in any kind of dialogue you seem only interested in winning.

The most interesting thing for me at this point would be to hear an actual heartfelt reason that you feel this information should be left out of the article. I have listed articles here that include victim identification.

I examined well over